Episode #85: "The more the merrier" is a common expression for good reason. Most of us don't want to be considered exclusive. We want others to feel welcomed and comfortable around us. But there are times when the more the merrier is not the case-- when the group dynamics for a particular event won't work if everyone comes along.
In episode 85, I have a tough conversation with Danielle Bayard Jackson, an incredibly clear-thinking friendship coach and national speaker on the topic of female friendships.
Danielle's viral TikTok and viral Instagram post on "Reasons Why You (Possibly) Weren't Invited" caught my attention. She gave examples in those videos I know I have done myself (cringe) and things I've thought, but have been too scared to say on my podcast or in my own writing about friendship.
I needed Danielle by my side to have this conversation about why we and others are sometimes not invited. And I'm glad I shared some of own insecurities and pet peeves, even though the topic gave me a stomachache when we spoke and still does posting it for others to hear.
Meet Danielle:
Danielle Bayard Jackson is a female friendship coach and educator who speaks nationally on the subject of friendship as a wellness imperative. Her coaching business, Friend Forward, is dedicated to teaching women how to create and maintain better female friendships. Danielle’s expertise has been featured in NBC News, Psychology Today, Wall Street Journal, Oprah Magazine, and many other outlets. She shares her insight weekly on The Friend Forward Podcast and has a book coming out in spring 2024 called Fighting For Our Friendships. Danielle is the official spokesperson for Bumble’s new app Bumble For Friends.
Personal IG - @daniellebayardjackson. Friend Forward IG - @friendforward
TikTok - @thefriendshipexpert Twitter -
* All transcripts are available on the main Buzzsprout "Dear Nina" site. Click on any episode and find the transcript tab.
Let's connect over all things friendship!
Episode #85: "The more the merrier" is a common expression for good reason. Most of us don't want to be considered exclusive. We want others to feel welcomed and comfortable around us. But there are times when the more the merrier is not the case-- when the group dynamics for a particular event won't work if everyone comes along.
In episode 85, I have a tough conversation with Danielle Bayard Jackson, an incredibly clear-thinking friendship coach and national speaker on the topic of female friendships.
Danielle's viral TikTok and viral Instagram post on "Reasons Why You (Possibly) Weren't Invited" caught my attention. She gave examples in those videos I know I have done myself (cringe) and things I've thought, but have been too scared to say on my podcast or in my own writing about friendship.
I needed Danielle by my side to have this conversation about why we and others are sometimes not invited. And I'm glad I shared some of own insecurities and pet peeves, even though the topic gave me a stomachache when we spoke and still does posting it for others to hear.
Meet Danielle:
Danielle Bayard Jackson is a female friendship coach and educator who speaks nationally on the subject of friendship as a wellness imperative. Her coaching business, Friend Forward, is dedicated to teaching women how to create and maintain better female friendships. Danielle’s expertise has been featured in NBC News, Psychology Today, Wall Street Journal, Oprah Magazine, and many other outlets. She shares her insight weekly on The Friend Forward Podcast and has a book coming out in spring 2024 called Fighting For Our Friendships. Danielle is the official spokesperson for Bumble’s new app Bumble For Friends.
Personal IG - @daniellebayardjackson. Friend Forward IG - @friendforward
TikTok - @thefriendshipexpert Twitter -
* All transcripts are available on the main Buzzsprout "Dear Nina" site. Click on any episode and find the transcript tab.
Let's connect over all things friendship!
The More The Merrier? That's not always true.
[00:00:00] Danielle: If last week you were on Instagram stories and you see that a couple girls went to a bookstore and had some wine and they were girls who you definitely know and you definitely would've liked to go, what feelings do you have?
Do you start to feel like maybe I'm not interesting enough? Or maybe they really don't like me? Where does that come from? Because some of us are harboring secret fears about ourselves and things we don't like about ourselves or that we're scared people will discover and we feel like it's been confirmed every time we're not chosen.
Oh, I knew I'm not smart enough. And so it's not even about them, it's just hitting a nerve with some other things we've got going on. And I think it could be worth it to facilitate a moment to figure out, man, why am I so, stirred up when this happens? How much of this stuff do I need to own? And how much is on them? And I just think that perspective can help us manage any negative feelings.
[00:00:54] Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina Conversations About Friendship. Today's conversation, exploring why you might not have been invited to a friend gathering is such a potentially icky topic. It makes people defensive and even bringing up these ideas can be so hard for people to hear.
Many of us like to think the more the merrier. It is not always the case. Group dynamics can be tricky, but then of course no one wants to be exclusive. I'm actually getting a stomach ache as I am saying the words. I'm not kidding, and that is why I called in some reinforcements.
We are so lucky to have friendship, coach and author Danielle Bayard Jackson with us today. On Dear Nina in the past two years, and in the written version of my column in the past nine years, I have touched on the topic of being included or not, but never quite in this direct and introspective way. I needed Danielle's wise and no nonsense approach to help me and you.
My listeners are going to benefit, as will I. First, where did this episode come from? Why now? When I heard Danielle do an Instagram reel on reasons you possibly weren't invited, I asked her if she'd come on the show and talk about it . She said yes right away, but that was ages ago and internet time, probably five months ago.
It took us a while to schedule it. Danielle has been busy writing the book Fighting for Our Friendships. She's been making her weekly podcast, the Friend Forward podcast, running her Friendship Coaching Business and being the official spokesperson for Bumble's new app, Bumble for Friends. So we are lucky to have Danielle with us at all today.
That video on Instagram and actually originated on TikTok, where I'm very new to TikTok, so I didn't even see it there. Now I've seen it there. It has 2 million views, 2,400 comments. I actually wanted to read all the comments. I couldn't. There were so many. I don't know how Danielle keeps up. So let me officially finally welcome Danielle to Dear Nina.
[00:02:45] Danielle: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm a fan of your show. I love listening and I'm very excited to get into this with you.
[00:02:51] Nina: People went bananas for this discussion, which I describe as a little bit, what I talk about here often, assuming the best, putting yourself in other people's shoes. There's a little bit of that in your videos, but there's a lot more of a hearty dose of asking people to do some reflection. But before we get into the details of some of the reasons you provided of why people might not be invited, can you explain what inspired you to make this video? You had some context for it. I want my listeners to understand.
[00:03:16] Danielle: So I am pretty active on social media. Okay, maybe too much, but I love being there because I feel like it's like this real time focus group when you get to see the comments and things like that. Also being in the friendship space where I study the research on friendship, it's helpful to me to kind of know how to keep a pulse on what's trending right now.
What's the hot topic or debate right now with regard to conflicts and platonic connections? You can't scroll TikTok for longer than 10 minutes before you come across some video of somebody talking about how they weren't invited to something. I've seen variations of this where they're visibly sad and they've got tears in their eyes. Most times younger people and they're announcing, I just discovered I wasn't invited, or they're talking about not inviting other people.
It's a large conversation and the comments tend to go one way or the other, which is very interesting. I was just kind of tired of seeing things that consistently vilified the person who's doing the inviting. And I said, sure, sometimes if a person is intentionally saying, my motivation is to not include these people, and I delight in their exclusion, that's one thing. We're all on the same page. Not a very kind thing. But to vilify anyone who did not invite you to something and assign negative motivations to that, I just don't think is fair or accurate.
[00:04:34] Nina: I really love that and in your work on social media and in your podcast, your voice is one of, you know, let's not feel sorry for ourselves. Let's do something. Let's be reflective on do we have anything to do with this? And I don't think either of us are here to tell people it's your fault. you're not invited. And both of us encourage people to go find people who want to include you. However, we do sometimes have behaviors that turn people off, and we have to address that a little bit. How about we, um, get into those 10 things.
[00:05:05] Danielle: One of them I like to start with is sometimes people have a certain objective for the gathering. If I wanna vent about mom stuff, for example, I might just invite my mom friends, because my goal is related to the people who are involved, and I'm doing the inviting according to who can help me achieve this goal.
Now, most of us are not thinking of it in that way. We're not sitting down and saying, who can help me achieve my goal? Or, it's not that way. But when we think about the vision that we have for the experience that we'd like, we immediately think of the people who can help us bring that vision to life.
I recently read a research study on this and it echoed those same sentiments that if you're excluded, one of the reasons is, if the group is trying to achieve something, be this professionally or socially. If they believe that you would not help them achieve the thing, they're not gonna invite you. And I understand how that can feel like a sting, but if you kind of separate yourself from it a little bit, you think, well, that makes sense. Logically, I guess I'm not a part of every group and I can't help everybody do all the things. It might not be an appropriate fit, so sometimes it's less about leaving you out, and it was more about calling in the people who they felt would really benefit from this experience.
[00:06:12] Nina: I like that you started with that one. Because I also want to start with these ones that are a little less personal and we'll kind of move our way to ones that really might require a little change on people's parts.
So, I love that one about, yeah, people were looking to create a certain kind of conversation with, you called it in the video, kind of like sameness. Sometimes we say sameness and everyone gets kind of on edge, but sometimes you're like, yeah. This is an event for my church group. This is an event for, you know, my Jewish friends. And it would be annoying for anyone else to sit here and listen to details of our kids at Jewish summer camp. Why would anyone listen to that? It's not offensive so much as protecting someone else's time and so that they don't feel left out when they come.
[00:06:52] Danielle: And I love that you, casually gave church friends as an example. Because that is literally an example from my life there are some happy hours I'm going to that are very happy and sometimes I'm like, well, who can appreciate this experience?
And so it's about, man, we wanna feel a certain sense of joy, or we wanna talk about some trashy tv. And I know certain people aren't going to appreciate the experience. Now here's the thing, Nina, and I'm sure you see this too. People often say in response to that, well, it would be nice to just be invited.
And I can appreciate the sentiment behind that. At some point we have to, independently maintain a sense of security that does not always necessitate another person's reassurance. I have to be confident that my friends love me, that they believe I add value to their lives and I don't need it demonstrated as an invitation to everything that they do, so I can understand how it feels nice to be asked just as a courtesy. I get that. But I think just, logistically, why would I invite you if I'm trying to accomplish this thing? So I understand that, but I always say, look at the evidence your friends have given you over the course of the friendship,
If this person is always there for you. Always rooting for you, always, showing up to your stuff, then this person cares about you. We have to be careful about measuring our friend's concern and investment according to how many invites we get to their things.
[00:08:16] Nina: I just love every word you say. And you know, I agree. So another one that was on that kind of side of things that I might be less personal that I wrote down of yours was a lot of times things happen out of convenience and circumstance. Two people just ran into each other. Hey, do you wanna go for a walk?
[00:08:30] Danielle: You know, sometimes when you want to socialize, talk to someone or spend time with someone, it becomes a matter of, what is the quickest, who is in close proximity And a certain ease in even coordinating that thing. I think if, if we look at it just again, whole picture.
Yeah. There's some element of delight in that spontaneity. Oh my god, you're in the neighborhood too. Okay, let's go. There's something about it where we were more concerned about maximizing this joyful moment and doing something spontaneously as opposed to sitting down and figuring out the five people in the group chat.
Can they all drive the 30 minutes it just becomes a delightful moment of, Hey, you're here. I'm here. Let's go walk. And you know what? I'm going to argue to that as well, is, again, this is why it's so important to have a relatively secure attachment style because when you start talking about friend groups, it is important to have an individual relationship with people in the group.
Me and another person might bond over one specific thing. Maybe it's our shared history we used to work together and we wanna talk about those kinds of things. And it's really nice when it's just the two of us and we show up in a certain way in this beautiful vault that the two of us share.
But we have to stop seeing that as, oh, so if you guys are close, or if you guys hung out, what reflection does that say about us? And sometimes there aren't any implications about you. It's just, we want to share a special moment. We have a certain language in history and that can't be a threat to what I share with you. That's totally separate.
[00:09:58] Nina: It does take some confidence. I had Dr. Lisa Damour on and we talked about teen friend groups. Your kids are still little, so you're not entering this yet, but some stuff she said about teens is so true for adults. And one thing she said was any group that is larger than four is going to have and should have, to your point, I agree, individual relationships within it, some are closer than others and that's just how it is. And to fight that, I mean we all have freedom of how we spend our time and yeah, there's different history. Some people have known each other longer. Some people click in a different way about certain things that take more time and so therefore you spend more time together and that’s part of being an adult is not fighting that, accepting it.
[00:10:37] Danielle: Totally. I know recently, maybe a couple months ago, because I'm trying to be better about sharing more about my personal life. Because normally I'm like, no, don't know me personally, let's just chat about the facts, you know? But recently it happened to me because I want people to know it's not something that you mature beyond. Like you hit a certain point and it never stings when two people hang out without you. You know, I'm having all these conversations and studying the research and things and get to talk to people like you, and we get to geek out on friendship and I still as a person, have a momentary sting.
I for just a second, when I, you know, recently saw two friends who I introduced and they were like, we're going on a walk. And I had a moment of like, oh, I know, I know, they did not hang out. And I had to coach myself through it of like, you know what? That's amazing. And also go me that I knew that they would click and they did, and I hope that was a good walk.
I had to also remind myself, well, wait a second. I've had one-on-ones with each of them where the other person wasn't invited because one, we wanted to talk about the arts and the other one, we wanted to talk about motherhood. And we're 10 years older than the other girls, so we wanted to have certain conversations.
It's something I have to coach myself through too sometimes. But I think as long as you finally arrive there, I think it's dangerous. Once you start to get into the thoughts of either internalizing it, what's wrong with me? Am I not good enough? I guess am I interesting enough? Or once you start to project and vilify. I guess they're fake friends, I guess, they’re not honest, you know? So I think we just have to be careful of going to those places.
[00:12:02] Nina: Yep. Use should call me sometimes if you're having those thoughts. I get that sting too sometimes. And I'm gonna tell you, I've had Anna Goldfarb on the podcast and we have become friends, we do a lot of voice memos. And so sometimes I will go to her for that kind of thing, both personally and professionally, if I'm feeling jealous, she's just like a voice of reason.
And I try to be that too. And it's nice to have that. So just, you know, I'm your older, Anna and I are both older than you. We can help each other. Okay, so another one again, in the category of not as personal would be, and again, these are all your examples. I want to be clear to my listeners, these are coming from Danielle's amazing video with 2 million views that they didn't know you'd be interested. an example I'll give is I absolutely hate camping. And I don't know if I have any friends who are into camping, but if they were and they wanted to plan a trip, they should go ahead and plan that without me. They can invite me. Like to your point, people say, oh, I like to be invited, whatever, but I also, maybe you don't need to waste an invitation on me. I'm not going.
[00:12:56] Danielle: Yeah, a hundred percent. I had two friends go to the Taylor Swift concert, and I don't wanna lose any Swifties, I don't wanna lose any listeners, but, I wasn't mad. I wasn't mad that I wasn't invited. I've never given any evidence over the course of our friendship that would be a thrilling experience for me.
And so the fact that their brains took a shortcut and were like, oh, who do we know who loves this experience? Let's all go. I mean again, and this is where it helps to kind of not only have secure attachment, but also really, be just self-confident because a part of me is like, I'm sure they did think about me and I'm sure that they decided for me, this is not her thing, you know?
Sometimes the assumption on the opposite end of vilifying a friend who decided to leave us out, I think we have to remember that sometimes they're doing it for noble reasons. Sometimes they think, you wouldn't be interested. You don't have the time. I hear that a lot from women with friends who have littles. You're always talking about how busy you are and tired. They think they're doing you a favor by not imposing by asking you to come out tomorrow night because you've got kids. Why would we do that to you?
Sometimes they think that you might not be able to afford it, and I know that's touchy for some people. But again, I mean, if we're deciding to do some lavish thing, and I know you recently shared with me some financial things I might think I am being considerate by not putting you in a position to have to entertain whether or not to say yes. People might be able to listen to this and be like, oh no, I don't think that was the case.
Okay. But if we're just providing you with perspective of possibilities to consider so that you don't launch into a place of, me versus her. If we can just offer perspective to inform the decisions that you make within your friendship, that's what it's about.
[00:14:41] Nina: That's right, and I would take that example one step further and say, if you're someone who is possibly not getting included sometimes because people think you're too busy, I would stop walking around saying how busy you are.
[00:14:51] Danielle: gosh. Yes, yes, yes. I'm sorry. But it's just like at some point it becomes a form of rejection to the inviter, which I don't think we think about. If they have asked you, Hey, do you wanna go hang out at the thing? You're like, girl, you know, I've got these kids. It's hard for me to make it out.
It's not a punishment. It's just at some point you've trained me that you are unavailable. at some point I'm going to get tired of hearing no. And just assume you can't go. We do have to be mindful of what messages have I been communicating to friends about my availability, I know some people are very like, Oh, you know, I'd rather stay at home or I love when people cancel plans on me.
I'd rather stay at home. You know, even some of that. So you communicated to me you prefer your alone time. I'm probably not going to invite you to this super social thing because you said that you don't like super social things.
[00:15:37] Nina: There's so many memes out there about kind of like, Ugh, I just wanna be on the couch, you know? And I consider myself a social introvert. But I am very social. What I mean by is at a certain point I need to recharge alone. But I wouldn't be putting memes out there all the time that.
Is exactly like you said. Oh, I love when my friends cancel. Like yeah, all of us have those feelings sometimes, but if you are constantly putting out either with your friends, saying stuff like that or putting out content like that on social media. Yeah. Why do people invite you anywhere? Isn't there a lot of that, Danielle? It's like a whole
[00:16:06] Danielle: there's so much. That's a whole thing. Yeah. Like, I love my aloneness.
[00:16:10] Nina: So actually this leads us to the other piece, which is a lot more of the list of the things that maybe.
We're a little more personal when that's the part that gives me a stomach ache. So we already talked about, you're not talking about how busy you are and then always saying no. Related to that, you mentioned you kind of did it all in one. I would almost make it its own, which is you always cancel. So maybe you say yes, but then you cancel.
[00:16:31] Danielle: Yeah. If you're rejecting invitations, if you are demonstrating a lack of reliability, and I mean, again, I'll be totally real with you. Sometimes I, feel myself delaying what I even say that because it sounds so preachy. Well, you need to be reliable, I mean, really, if we're calling it what it is, if I am training you that you can't count on me because I might change my mind.
Then it is a trust issue. I'm really not trying to, be dramatic here or hyperbolic. It really is a trust issue. So if our last four planned outings, I'm excited about it all week. I've gotten a sitter. I've told my husband, I'm going to be home at eight. I picked my outfit and I'm really looking forward to spending time with you. And you tell me, I changed my mind. I'm not going, and that happens multiple times. At some point I have to learn, okay, I don't wanna feel that feeling again. So I'm gonna take these actions so I don't find myself in that position again. I know there are arguments to, well, life happens sometimes and sometimes you cancel.
That's absolutely right. It does. And I'm so grateful for friends who know that sometimes life is just getting too tough. But is it the exception or the rule that you don't show up when you said that you would? We do have to look at, okay, how consistent am I on my follow through with friends and can they trust that I will go out?
If not, then they're gonna start to make arrangements so that they are not, in a tough position anymore. And I can't blame them for that. And if you know somebody's listening and they're like, okay, that has been me. Now you can communicate that. Hey, I knew I was in a season of, cancel last minute, and that is so on me, but I, I miss our hangouts and I'd really love to get together next Thursday night if you're free. I mean, we can respect that.
[00:18:06] Nina: That's right. And that's our whole point here is like some of these are us. This next one has been me sometimes, so we're going to get to it and you got to do something about it if you want to keep getting invited. So this one is very hard. I wonder if you relate to it because we are both podcasters. We have a lot to say. I think you know where I'm going with this and this is, maybe you don't get invited because you talk too much. I might throw up in the corner just thinking about that.
[00:18:28] Danielle: Oh, I'm laughing because I know this has been me. You know, one story I tell is, this is maybe 15 years ago, but I remember having a friend I was sensing attitude with a mutual friend and I was like, what's her issue? And she was like, well, Danielle, she feels like sometimes you come and you tell us all your stories, but you know, we don't get to really share our stuff. And it was sure embarrassing in the moment I found myself getting defensive, you know, ready to recall times when they got to talk plenty, and it was like once I sat on that, I was like, oh shoot. I guess I am in a habit of, I think I'm a great storyteller. So I'm like, alright guys, I've got a story for you.
I'm thinking we're all enjoying it. But when I factually looked at things I was like, oh, they're right. It's not really balanced conversationally, I guess that's true. And I'm so grateful for that moment. Because now I'm aware and I am settling in and taking delight and sitting back and just listening to what my friends have going on and I don't have to shine all the time and tell my story sometimes.
I had to learn that. A lot of times people feel like they're being polite by not telling you because we don't want to embarrass you. So there are a lot of people who might be in your circle who feel like, man, it would be really nice if I could contribute equally. I'm excited to share things with her too.
But it's so awkward for them to tell you because they don't want to hurt you. It's just something to be mindful of. What is people's experience of me when I do go and socialize? Please don't get to a place where you're being so anxious and obsessed with how other people experience you. You know, like reasonably so.
But you have to ask yourself, what do I look like as a conversation partner? What is that experience for other people? And if it's something that they don't find to be a pleasurable experience or if they feel like they always have to be an audience member when you come along, then they might not elect to bring you in on those situations.
[00:20:11] Nina: Oh gosh. So much truth there. I had a situation just like that where someone didn't tell me as directly and I can remember exactly where I was sitting. It was probably eight years ago or so, she was saying something kind of about somebody else as being like an over talker, and then she's like, you know, kind of like you and I died a little.
I'm laughing now, but uncomfortably and I know you could feel me on this, Danielle, because I did exactly what you said first, I got a little defensive in my mind. There were times where this particular person has dominated the conversation. I got defensive, but you know, she wasn't wrong. There were plenty of times, probably more that I did that. As someone who caress about friendship the way we do and things being balanced to be called.
She didn't say you talk a lot, she literally used the word over talker, which is the same thing, but it just sounds so much more cruel. I cried. She felt terrible. I mean, she apologized, but I was like, no, listen, there's truth to it and I'm going to work on that. And I did, but you said another thing that's really important.
It is hard and it takes a little practice to not then show up anxious. I think for a little while I showed up mouth zippered. I was probably boring. It was the other extreme, why would we invite Nina? She doesn't say anything. you do have to find that way of being yourself, but also shutting up.
[00:21:26] Danielle: Yeah, exactly. And I do, I mean, I think a lot of us know intellectually, like, oh, I want feedback from my friends and I'm learning and growing, but in real life it feels so cringe to live it out, but experiment with, oh, I'm working on that. I'm working on making sure my friends know that I am interested in their lives and that I wanna settle in and, and let them talk, and I want to hear them. That's important to me. My friends feel heard, but oh, I didn't realize that sometimes my talking could make them feel like I'm not as interested in their life. So acknowledging both things.
Sure. Maybe you are a great storyteller and maybe you are excited, and so you like entertaining your friends. That could all be true. But we have to look at, oh, wait a second. Could they say that they feel seen and that I'm interested in their life, or is it at all possible that they could say it feels like I don't prompt them as much for their life developments and then, responding accordingly.
[00:22:20] Nina: There's hope. Danielle and I have worked through it. You can work through it. A related one to that I loved how you said it. You said maybe you're not invited because you have too much beef with people and you got too much—you’re always complaining about who's invited, that you're mad at this one, you're mad at that one, so you don't want to sit next to this one. Okay, you're not invited.
[00:22:37] Danielle: Yeah, so I recently went through this with an acquaintance. She has a problem with everybody and I remember one time talking to my husband I counted nine people, nine people, she has said that they've had a moment or that she’s kind of a witch or she's really cheap and she can't be trusted. At one point I remember wanting to have a function when I had everybody together. do I even invite her? do I even invite her if she's gonna feel like I don't like people here? And if other people can sense, I know she doesn't like me. If we're trying to have a good experience and I want people to feel comfortable, I want them to share and laugh loudly if I invite all of these people.
What's the experience? Everyone's stiff and it's awkward. So I'm glad I was invited, but I didn't have a good time either because I know someone dislikes me or because I hate the three girls sitting on the couch. You know what I'm saying? So I mean, again, if we just keep it real, it's just something to be mindful of.
Maybe you don't have high opinions of a lot of people. It's just that we have to be prepared for the consequences. The social consequence of that is if I'm announcing my dislike of others, then I'm putting the host in a position where she has to protect somebody, and if she doesn't want these other people to feel a certain tension, then they're just not gonna invite the person who's posing the issue.
And so it's just something to be aware of. No one's saying to be fake or pretend you like everybody, but be prepared for the consequences socially that come with announcing your dislike of various people.
[00:24:02] Nina: Social consequence. That's exactly right. Another one. I'd love to hear more examples of. You said, you know, you might not be invited because you make people feel judged. Could you think of some examples of that?
[00:24:12] Danielle: Totally. So, okay. So I'll go with like my church friends. Again, you know, some of my church friends, they are my happy hour friends. Okay. But, for some of them maybe they don't appreciate, and I'm saying they, you know, I, people would call me their church friend who wouldn't appreciate certain conversations, if I don't think they'll appreciate certain conversations.
And they will make it very clear they don't appreciate certain conversations. Again, I have to be mindful of what the dynamic looks like, what the experience will be. If there's, I hate to say it, but I have certain mom friends, and for the mom who's always saying things like, wait a second, you guys let your kids eat bop bop bop, but if an expression of disapproval makes people feel like, well, I don't wanna share anything because I didn't feel good, or I don't know how she's gonna feel about this, they're not going to elect to spend time with you. I mean, it really is that simple. Shasta Nelson, you know, has her friendtimacy triangle, and at the bottom of the period is positivity. And the idea is that, if we want depth in our friendships, that's one of the ingredients we need.
It's because it's fundamental. If being together is not a pleasurable experience and I don't feel safe to just share my opinions and to speak freely without somebody saying, oh, I can't believe you think that, or like, Ooh, doing facial expressions and things that make me feel like she doesn't approve. I'm not gonna have a good time. No one's saying here, okay, well, don't have opinions. But being mindful about, do you need to push somebody into believing something else? Like you don't know how to let it go when they tell you they don't agree? And just being mindful of, again, how people experience us when we're sharing opinions. Are we doing it in a way that lets them know, we think that their choices are inferior?
[00:25:49] Nina: That's been a tricky one in my life. With some of our friends, our kids are a little older, so we've already been through this. I mean, Danielle, I have a kid who's 19 already. I have a 19 year old, a 16 year old, 14 and 11. But I have friends with some younger kids still, so it's very hard not to be like, let me tell you how it is when there are teenagers or this or that, and yeah, it's tricky. You have to just say your thing and then get outta of that conversation.
[00:26:11] Danielle: And you can even end it with things like, you know, I know people do different things, but that works really well for us. Just an acknowledgement of like, I know there's another way to do it, but it seems to work for our family is enough to acknowledge to others. I'm not necessarily saying that this is right. So it's, it's a dance for sure.
[00:26:26] Nina: I think that we actually covered all the ones you had. I have three more I'd like to add.
[00:26:31] Danielle: Yeah. Oh, let's hear it.
[00:26:32] Nina: This is a major one and people are gonna be sensitive about this because we all do it to a point, but you know it when you see it and it's excessive, and it's that you are on your phone the entire time.
[00:26:41] Danielle: good. Nina. That's a good one. Yes,
[00:26:45] Nina: And we all do it to a point. What happens to me is if I see someone's on their phone a bunch, even if we're like in a big group, I see it, it makes me think about my phone. Oh, I wonder if I have a message from the kids. I wonder if I need to be communicating. And then I'm thinking about my phone, and now I'm annoyed that this person made me think about my phone. And I also kind of like, get off your phone. Get off your phone for 30 minutes.
[00:27:06] Danielle: Yeah, totally. There's this research study where they put people into two different groups, so group A, group B, and they partnered people within those groups. They're strangers and they had group A, have their conversations in a room where there was just a notebook on a side table. Group B, there was a phone on the side table and everybody in group B with the phone in the room reported having lesser feelings of liking toward their conversation partner.
People in the room without the phone present reported liking their conversation partner more than the people in group B did. So there genuinely is something where we're associating certain feelings, with people when a phone's in the room, right, let alone in their hands and they're looking at it.
Because again, even though to us, the phone user, we're thinking, oh, I know I'm, checking a quick email or I know, I'm just texting my husband really quick. Sure. That's innocent motivations. We have to be aware of these simultaneous realities. So for me, I look up, I see your eyes down in your phone. I feel unseen. I feel like there's something else going on. I can't really settle because I don't know what the thing is, and even if you're not a paranoid person, but it just shows me just generally you're not present and you're not interested. And so again, to avoid that feeling, I'd rather just not do that anymore. So that's a really really good one I didn't even think about, but I could totally see how that would make people think twice about extending an invitation.
[00:28:29] Nina: And the watch is related to that. The Apple watch. I don't wear an Apple watch because, not because I'm like better than everyone, but because I have less trust in myself not to look at it. I'll look at it all the time. I know I will. I can't even wear one. Another one that I'm adding is you can't go with the flow. You get invited, it's already been planned somebody has an idea. Let's go to this restaurant at this time. What do you do about that friend who's always like, well, Why aren't we going at 7:30? Why aren't we going at this time? Why aren't we doing it on this day? And it's like, okay, we're kind of sorry. We invited you.
[00:29:00] Danielle: Oh my gosh. That study that I referred to earlier, that piece of research about why people aren't invited. One of them did say that if yes, if you have a shared objective and the person's going against the objective, then you probably don't invite them. But that's another one. If we're in a group dynamic, we have to have a certain dynamic for this to work a certain ecosystem for it to function. If you are coming across as disruptive to what we're trying to all do as a group, it's gonna be an issue. And so I think people do need to look at themselves if they have a, I guess, dominant and or controlling personality in that way, it's not gonna do very well in group settings.
[00:29:34] Nina: And I have one more to add. And then we actually did forget one of yours, which is a big one, and it's actually a perfect one to end on. So mine first, and then the last one of yours. Mine was, it's different than saying no and canceling, although it's in the same bucket. It's that you just like never respond.
You tend to be late to respond, right? There's that person in the group texts who never, ever responds and I know we're here sitting telling people not to be in their phone 24/7, and I do agree with that, you still need figure out a system. Everyone needs, unfortunately this day figure out a system to not be on your phone constantly, but still be responsive and you don't need to be responsive immediately.
I think that’s where we all need to come to. We don't need to expect our friends to respond right away, but if you truly never add to the group conversation, you never say, yes, I'd love to, or, sure. how about these three dates when someone's trying to plan? You never respond. it's not gonna be on the day that works for you. Or you maybe not get invited anymore.
[00:30:24] Danielle: Mm-hmm. maybe the word is responsibility, which doesn't sound like sexy or fun, but to be a part of these group dynamics where we want to have a good time and do things together. If you are making everybody else require extra labor, they need to reach out to me, they need to make sure I'm included. What's my responsibility so I, again, I know that's not very sexy and it doesn’t give us really butterflies, but at some point it is a social contract.
What do I, kind of contribute? What are my expectations in terms of what I think they should offer and what I am required to offer? And so, especially when people are trying to have a good time, make it easier. The expectation that they'll always reach out to you, and if you don't come, they'll always reach out first to see why. And they'll always invite you despite you saying no a hundred times, just like sitting with, okay, what’s my responsibility and what's the stuff I own, and then vice versa, which definitely gives us some clarity and gives us perspective to manage our feelings.
[00:31:16] Nina: Yes. And then the last one of yours, and this is a hard one, I do think it's a good one to end on, is maybe you're not as close as you thought. That an ouch, that's an ouch one. But like some of this does add up to that. Some of it, not all of it. Like we said, sometimes it's circumstance or a lot of different things like we said, but, it is sometimes that
[00:31:35] Danielle: So this. Yeah, this is a hard one. But, you know, there was one study that I often share and, and it was small. But they found that only 50% of our friendships are reciprocal. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that only half my friends like me and half don't. But it might mean that, I consider this girl to be my number one girl, but the way that her life has been arranged over the course of her life, her social network, I'm her number three, and I can either be upset by that and always work to try to be her number one and figure out why I'm not her. Number one, I can withdraw my friendship. Because I'm like, well, if she's not my number one, I'm not gonna be. I could do all that. Or I can find liberation in the fact that, hey, we don't prioritize each other or rank each other the same or see each other with the same closeness and intention.
But you know what, she adds value to my life. I enjoy her, she supports me. She's always been an encourager. And when we do spend time together, it's a great experience. And I can delight in that and I can be satisfied with that. But again, hard pill to swallow. Again, I'll say I would like to think, that I'm a fun gal. Recently there was a woman who I thought was so freaking cool that I met at this event, and I'm like, oh my God. She's like really cool. I thought we had a vibe. We were I'll laughing, because I've never said this out loud, we were talking, yeah, we were talking, you know, after the event in the parking lot, where you do that thing where everybody's going home, but you guys are still just chatting in the parking lot.
[00:33:00] Nina: Good chemistry,
[00:33:01] Danielle: Chemistry. She's laughing, you're laughing. I'm like, man, this is awesome. And I remember just doing a couple things to kind of insinuate like, Hey, we should get together. And she did a lot of those yeah, definitely. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But it like never happened. And I'm thinking, what the heck?
But it could be that I was very excited by that and I was ready to invest time and energy into that. But it doesn't mean she secretly hated me and was faking. It could be that oh, that was a delightful night for her. But she is not in a position to invest time or resource, or is not interested as much as I was.
That's okay. I had to catch myself to go to internalizing, well, maybe I'm not as funny as I thought. No. Just okay, well that sucks because that would've been fun, but it is what it is.
[00:33:52] Nina: I know, without knowing you too much, I know you have been on that other side because I've been on both sides too. When you're outgoing, I’m sure that has happened on the other side and for you it was just like you said, just, a good fun night and now you're gonna go home and return them millions of texts from the friends you already have,
[00:33:58] Danielle: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:00] Nina: Because you didn't have your phone out the whole night successfully. You, at the end of your episodes, give homework. Because you're a coach. I mean, I am not a coach. you are a coach and you really do give actionable steps on your episodes. And of course you do, you know, one-on-one when you're working with people as well. If you would have a couple pieces of homework for my listeners, I would love that. And I will add one, unless it's one you're already gonna say, but I'll wait for you to go first.
[00:34:23] Danielle: So yeah, I like to end my, episodes of Friend Forward by giving homework, some kind of tangible application, right? And it also plays on my background as a high school teacher. people used to hate homework and now they're like, Hey, what's my homework? I'm like, oh God, this is a change of tone.
First thing I would say is I want you to think of the last gathering that you had. Is there anybody in your life, who could possibly say that they were disappointed they weren't included if, we're just entertaining other perspectives. What is a recent gathering you had, whether it was just like two girlfriends?
Is it possible that there's somebody else in your life? Who could say, man, it would've been nice if they invited me just to give some perspective of how social networks even work and how sometimes it, it wasn't personal. And then the next thing is I want you to think about the last time you weren't invited and what feelings that stirred up and how can you explore what those feelings mean without attaching them to the person who invited you. So for example, if last week you were on Instagram stories and you see that a couple girls went to a bookstore and had some wine and they were girls who you definitely know and you definitely would've liked to go, what feelings do you have?
Do you start to feel like maybe I'm not interesting enough? Or maybe they really don't like me, look at that. Where does that come from? Because some of us are harboring, secret fears about ourselves and things we don't like about ourselves or that we're scared people will discover and we feel like it's been confirmed every time we're not chosen.
Oh, I knew I'm not smart enough. I knew I'm not pretty enough to be with girls like that. And so it's not even about them, it's just hitting a nerve with some other things we've got going on. And I think it could be worth it to facilitate a moment to figure out, man, why am I so, stirred up when this happens? How much of this stuff do I need to own? And how much is on them? And I just think that perspective can help us to kind of manage any, negative feelings.
[00:36:07] Nina: That's so great and my homework will not surprise any of my listeners, and that is be the planner. I always say that you be the cruise director, you make a plan, you invite people, and it's not that easy to decide who to invite. I never like people sitting around, whether it's teens or adults waiting around for invitations. You issue the invitation, whether it's small, two people out, whether it's a walk with a friend, and whether it's a bigger group thing. No more sitting around wondering and complaining about why you weren't invited.
[00:36:35] Danielle: Nina. I love that it's also very empowering and it shows us how we can be the author of our own friendship story. So that kind of passively waiting to be selected or saying, you know what? I'm a connector and I have people I'd love to spend time with and I'm gonna get that going, is very empowering. So that's really good.
[00:36:49] Nina: Danielle, when I emailed you earlier today, I said, this is going to be an epic episode, and I think we delivered. Do you think?
[00:36:54] Danielle: This is a great topic and it's so nice speaking with somebody who's also in this world and people are trusting you with their personal friendship issues. And so I'm sure we've heard some of the same troubles that women are having that are on their heart. And so it's really nice to kind of have this conversation together.
[00:37:08] Nina: Cannot wait for the book to come out. Listeners, if you are looking for actual coaching, you're hearing some of my episodes and you're like, I would like to work on some of these things, I'll have all of Danielle's information on my, show notes. But Danielle, tell them real fast the name of your website. Because that really leads to all of your information.
[00:37:24] Danielle: So everything lives @betterfemalefriendships.com, so the coaching and the book and the podcast and all the things, but just some resources to help those of us who are very intentional about creating better platonic relationships.
[00:37:36] Nina: That's a great name for a website. Like way to nail that. Seriously. I mean, because that is what it is. Better female friendships. That's wonderful. Listeners, come back next week for another episode. As I say at the end of every single episode, when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.