Unintentionally Hurting a Friend: Kathy Sackheim (my mom)

Episode #113: So, you've unintentionally hurt your friend's feelings. Or, your friend hurt your feelings, likely not on purpose. My wise mom joins me in this replay episode about forgiveness---asking for forgiveness and wanting apologies from others. We also discussed grudges, forgiving but not forgetting, personal stories of our own pettiness and others' pettiness, and more.


LINKS MENTIONED:

The 20 questions my husband uses for self-reflection around Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. 

The article I wrote for Kveller in 2014, “Waiting For an Apology That Will Never Come”

The article I wrote for The Jewish Daily Forward in 2013, “The Benefit of the Doubt for the New Year”

Other episodes featuring my mom: 

• The Friend Who Will Only Text
• When Friends Ask Questions You Don’t Want to Answer
• Widowhood and Friendship

Two quotes by Maggie Smith in her book, Keep Moving: 

“Maybe we say ‘holding a grudge’ because that kind of resentment is a heavy thing you have to wrap your arms around to carry. Holding it weighs you down, not the other person. Set it down anytime. Right now, for instance. Keep moving.”“Expect that what you tend to will grow. Expect that what you feed with your care and attention, what you shine your light on, will thrive. Choose wisely. Keep moving.”

Quote from my mom on grudges:

“Well, you’ve heard this before. People say that holding a grudge weighs you down, not the other person. So that’s how forgiveness is tied into grudge holding. If you can forgive somebody and keep moving forward, it’s much better for you psychologically.”

* All transcripts are available on the main Buzzsprout "Dear Nina" site. Click on any episode and find the transcript tab.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] nina: if there’s something I have done intentionally or unintentionally to hurt you, I hope you'll accept my apology. I hope you will tell me so I have the chance to apologize. That's actually more powerful because a blanket, will you accept my apology I think be a little meaningless. Will you allow me the chance to explain ask your forgiveness?

That's different. I think that's what you're looking for, is like a chance to hear what you might upset about so I can then answer for it. Welcome to Dear Nina, Conversations About Friendship. I haven't had the chance to record with my mom in a while. It really only works when she's visiting me in Minneapolis and she hasn't been here in a while. Actually I believe on her last visit, we just did not have time.

But an episode that we recorded one year ago was about forgiveness and grudges the friend who is always offended; apologies and owing apologies. We are in the middle of the 40 days on the Jewish calendar, which can apply to anyone because this is helpful, interpersonal friendship and family matters.

We are in the middle of these 40 days where you spend time thinking about who you probably owe an apology too, and it's not something you can just think about in one day. This is something that takes many days of introspection. My mom and I spoke about forgiveness at length. We talked about times she remembered owing apologies, being owed apologies.

We just talked in general about the idea of being the kind of person who does not walk around feeling like they are owed an apology all the time and how that's probably a more peaceful way to go about your life. I know it is easier said than done and I am not perfect, nor is she perfect, but I do believe it's something we both work on.

I really value these conversations with my mom. I've done four or five episodes with her total and we just don't get a chance to record together a lot. It does not work if I'm visiting Chicago because I am not the kind of high tech operation that has all this equipment that I can bring with me.

Everything is plugged in just right at my house in Minnesota. And this show does not go on the road. But I, you know, I'm quite aware, uh, she's my only living parent now I value her opinion a lot. I think she has a lot to share and offer. And I think that if you have never heard an episode with my mom, this is probably our best one. I really enjoyed our rapport in this one. We had different backgrounds, different life experiences, yet we really do see eye to eye on matters of forgiveness, grudges, the friends who might be offended, the friends who might have offended you. There's a lot to say on this topic if there is more you want to add I would love to hear it in my Facebook group dear Nina the group. My mom is in that group, too She's not on Facebook that much, but she will pop on there if I remind her Hey, mom somebody had a question for you on the podcast episode We did on forgiveness and being offended and all those topics. Come see us there.

Anyone is welcome. There are two questions you have to answer to join because I like to make sure that you're there for the right reasons and they are not hard questions at all You will be able to answer them if you are not a robot or someone who is there to troll us you will Have no problem answering them. So that's on facebook. You just look up Dear Nina: The Group love to see you there .We also talk about books and tv and all kinds of other things lots of friendship stuff, obviously.

And now I present my mom, Kathy, and the discussion we had exactly one year ago. Welcome, Mom. 

[00:03:39] kathy: Welcome to me. Thank you.

[00:03:41] nina: I cannot record with my mom unless she's in town visiting because I have a lot of faith in her sound situation at home and the rings clocks go and can't really control the situation there. Here in in Minneapolis my little studio. Doesn't sound like me, Mom?

[00:04:01] kathy: It sounds exactly like you. 

Because I have you here close the Jewish holidays, some things I want to talk about that think relate to friendship and relate to everybody whether you Jewish or not, because I know I have a lot of non Jewish listeners. And of the I appreciate about the fall Jewish holidays, which are Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. So the Jewish Year and the Day of Atonement, which both really important holidays for us, is that the lessons from them, the things we think about, can be appreciated by all people. Just like we can appreciate things other people's holidays.

[00:04:35] nina: A major focus in this month of Elul, E L U L, is to be thinking about ways we want to different the next year. that includes, asking forgiveness for things we've done that might have hurt other people. And a lot of people assume that happens on Yom Kippur on the Day of Atonement, which this year is September 25th We are on a Lunar calendar. So it changes all the time, but that actually is not correct. It actually the month of Elul when you are supposed to begin the process of asking for forgiveness. Did you know that, Mom,

[00:05:08] kathy: I didn't know 

[00:05:09] nina: Okay. So you learned something here with your daughter? my mom very daughter. Right? I mean, we're equally Jewish. No one's more Jewish the next. I'm just extra, 

[00:05:19] kathy: more religious 

[00:05:20] nina: extra into it. Yeah. It's very important that, everyone know there's really no such thing as being like more Jewish. don't use that expression. you might say more religious, you might say more observant of the laws. But I grew up in your house where it obviously really important in our house and it's important to me. Before you can ask people for forgiveness you have think about people you might have hurt. And that means intentionally and unintentionally. We should think about what are ways that could our friends,  Let’s start with unintentionally, because think a lot of hurts are unintentional 

[00:05:53] kathy: Well, when your life changes one reason or another, having lost your dad, I've had to start some new relationships. And how do deal with the old relationships when wanting to spend time with newer friends and an older friend is asking you to do something and where you always used Do it then want to be with a new person, too it becomes a problem. 

[00:06:17] nina: Yeah, so that would be an example of an unintentional hurt, and I guess could turn intentional you never do anything to acknowledge that other person is 

[00:06:27] kathy: probably missing you? I know to address it. I'm just saying it's a problem. I know what to say to make it better.

[00:06:34] nina: This is just one example, but maybe acknowledging when you know somebody is likely feeling a certain way. Maybe they've dropped hints, but also I we sometimes run the danger of assuming we know how other people feel don't always know, I'm not sure that I would up a friend and say, Hey, I have a thinking X, Y, and Z, and I want to apologize or acknowledge that you're feeling this way if they it. So I think speaks how important it is to communicate with our friends. mean, you're often someone advocates, and I with picking your battles, and so it's possible that you have a who has decided to pick this battle, so hasn't communicated with you. but is maybe thinking about it and acting differently. 

[00:07:16] kathy: Right. I suppose you can say, have I done something to hurt you? I’ve noticed a change in behavior. 

[00:07:22] nina: I llke that. That an opportunity. if the person doesn't take you up on that opportunity, I mean, only so much you can do. 

[00:07:29] kathy: Right. 

[00:07:29] nina: What other unintentional things we might do to hurt other people? I think one has to modern technology. It's real issue. that would be ignoring somebody's text email.

[00:07:40] kathy: Okay, that's a whole generational thing. 

[00:07:42] nina: it's not that different than a phone call. you left friend a message on answering machine, , my mom still has an answering on her home uses it. I like leave messages you on your machine and you get them, 

[00:07:54] kathy: right? 

[00:07:55] nina: Do your friends have answering machines still? 

[00:07:57] kathy: Mostly they do. 

[00:07:58] nina: So let's say you left a couple messages for a friend on her answering machine and she never got back to you. Would you a little miffed?

[00:08:06] kathy: I would assume that something's wrong.

[00:08:07] nina: What if it was a repeated behavior it wasn't just because that's a fair assumption. I think that speaks well of you and your friendships that most of your friends wouldn't just ignore your messages if they didn't return your message times in row something probably is wrong. Have you ever had a and I'm thinking In your forties, fifties, who just repeatedly ignored messages or eventually get to you, but already date has passed since you were maybe to get tickets for a show like that. Or did your not really flake out like that?

[00:08:38] kathy: I don't remember experiencing that. I remember my mother complaining about someone who didn't return two phone calls and saying to my mother, Mom, maybe something's wrong. you to speak to her, keep calling till you reach her. That's not really about forgiveness.

[00:08:54] nina: Well, it's, it's related because don't always have get to the level of if can assume the best in the first place. Sometimes so much assumption that back forth and then therefore act accordingly, like you a little put out by a friend and then you sense the friend's put out by you're kind like, well, I didn't even do so you irritated and now there's tension. If could skip that, don't even need to get to the point of asking for forgiveness. do think you tend to the I really to. You do a better job than I do, but I try. Because I think it's important. 

[00:09:25] kathy: I think so too. And if you sense that some behavior has changed, as we just a few minutes ago, I suppose can try to say, have I done something to hurt you? 

[00:09:35] nina: And what is a common phrase, throughout this month and closer to Yom Kippur, if something I have done intentionally or unintentionally to hurt you, I hope you'll... accept my apology, or they'll even go as far as to say, I hope you will tell me so I have the chance to apologize. , that's actually more powerful because a blanket, will you accept my apology I think be a little meaningless. I've seen some people say, I've even seen write this on Facebook, will you allow me the chance to explain ask your forgiveness?

That's different. I think that's what you're looking for, is like a chance to hear what you might upset about so I can then answer for it. 

[00:10:13] kathy: When I had my store for 13 years, and I had an unhappy customer, I was given the advice of asking the customer, the customer says I'm unhappy, it's alright, the person's already saying what they're unhappy about, is not offering to do X, Y, or Z, but to say to the customer, what can I do to make the situation better. What can I do that would please you? Which I guess is a variation on the theme. 

[00:10:39] nina: Yeah, that to work. 

[00:10:40] kathy: Well, what the advice I was given is oftentimes what do is so more the customer expecting or wants. So I suppose we can change that a friendship. situation where, if you ask what you do, the friend will be, honest about it, maybe it'll be much simpler than coming up with something more complicated.

[00:11:01] nina: Yeah. Another thing I appreciate about a holiday comes every year and forces us to think about the things we might have done to hurt other people is I think it breeds whatever the opposite a victim mindset is. Because we're not just walking around, well shouldn't be, just walking around saying, owes me an apology? It takes work to. actually think through, who might be waiting for an apology from me? Which if think about it, I think already forces you to be a better or partner, colleague, everything. Daughter, mother, sister, those things. Because the kind of who's walking around keeping track of who might owe an apology, I it's probably someone who's harder get along with.

I like this forcing of, who might be waiting an apology from me. The reason we don't just do it all one day it in is because we've lived since the last Yom Kippur 364 days or something. Who could think of all that one day? It really takes some thought. You have to kind of think about your year because we all make mistakes. 

[00:12:06] kathy: I agree. You know the story of the one time I broke up with a friend who, in essence, I said to her, I feel like I never come through for you. And then she had a list of all the things that 

[00:12:20] nina: she was was like, as a matter of fact, let me get out this parchment.

[00:12:23] kathy: She did. She had a list many, many things I hadn't done and hadn't come her. 

[00:12:27] nina: What kind of examples? I'm curious. 

[00:12:30] kathy: One thing she said, had the hospital and she said, and didn't come to sit with my husband. At the time I had . young children, and I don't know her husband have wanted me to sit

waiting her to be finished with surgery. It would be different than when , you have grown up teenage children, and you're free to do that. And I have done that. That was just one thing, but she had a whole list. And at that point, it wasn't a thing that could be forgiven. It was a whole person, and I ended up ending the friendship 

[00:13:00] nina: she couldn't forgive you or couldn't her? 

[00:13:02] kathy: she was somebody who very And I knew that had a husband. I, couldn't. Be there catering to her every whim. 

[00:13:11] nina: Well, I think might have sensed in her is she was holding a grudge. And she was going to forever hold a grudge. like said, it's for you, it kind of who she was as a person. It's almost like the opposite was true as well. had decided, well, Kathy's not the kind of person who's going to drop everything at moment. And she right. 

[00:13:29] kathy: And she right.

[00:13:31] nina: Yeah. it's best know that about each other. I think are connected this holiday as well.

I'm going to read couple quotes from, Maggie Smith? Not the actress, but the poet and writer. And she's written a book called Keep Moving which is really just a bunch of quotes that I love. then she had a memoir out recently. Which, the name escaping me, I'll have it in the show notes. But anyway, this is from her book, Keep Moving. 

So one says, Maybe we say holding a grudge because that kind of resentment is a heavy thing have to wrap your arms to carry. Holding it weighs you down, not the other person. Set it down anytime.

Right now, for instance. moving. So all these end with and they're very motivating. A little later she Expect what you tend to will grow. Expect that what you feed with your care and attention, what you shine your light on, will thrive. Choose Keep moving. do you the connection here? I do. 

[00:14:29] kathy: Well, you've heard this before. people say that holding a grudge weighs you down. It's not affecting the other person. So that's how forgiveness is tied into grudge holding. That if you can forgive somebody and keep moving, it's much better for you psychologically.

[00:14:46] nina: i wrote an article for, it was for Kveller, it might have been Jewish Daily Forward, it was a while ago now, it was about what you do when you are the person waiting for an never comes, and it had to with this time of year. interviewed reform rabbi, a, I rabbi too. And I, did an Orthodox rabbi and I asked them all the same question, which was what do you do, when you've made all the apologies that you feel are owed to other people your life, still all human while it's ideal to not be walking thinking like, who owes me an apology? can't help it. So what do you do when there's out there who were pretty rude or did something over the year that really they should apologize for and of waiting for apology they basically all said you are not required to forgive them, but you should. Essentially in different words different ways and it matter what Jewish background was That basically the because I think you need to be a rabbi realize that you like you said only harming yourself When you carry around anger, but they did all to that doesn't you have to be close to the person 

[00:16:01] kathy: I was going say that. I think you recognize this person. The relationship isn't working for me. I need to stay away 

[00:16:07] nina: so you can forgive without reconnecting necessarily.

[00:16:11] kathy: You can end the connection.

[00:16:13] nina: That's hard to do , you know, it's interesting because of our different ages and just my involvement in social media that I you, you don't have and of your friends don't have. I I know you're Facebook, but that's different than being involved in it. You can be on without being super involved. And I'm involved. So when you're not close somebody there is an awkwardness when you are still pretty connected online. It's hard to disconnect. That an issue at all in your age?

[00:16:40] kathy: I don't think so. I guess I'm not that connected. 

[00:16:42] nina: That's probably a better way to be but gosh, it just kind of is what it is now 

[00:16:47] kathy: I was having lunch with and a friend of hers and I was telling them about your podcast and it was about friendship the other person who's not my friend was saying she, a friend she had had for 12 years dropped her because she had given the son a wedding gift and the store went out of business they couldn't return the gift. And the mother of the son just stopped speaking to her for no reason. And then, maybe years later, called her This other person said to the person who call, why are you calling me now? Why you stop to me? she was told, Well, it was about this gift, and I felt you were dishonoring me. By giving I mean, it was such a crazy thing. 

[00:17:29] nina: Listeners, you cannot see this, but, my mouth has open at the level of pettiness. 

[00:17:34] kathy: Yeah. the friend who had sent the wedding gifts said, well, why didn't you call me? I would have sent him a check. I would have taken the gift back. Why didn't you say something to me? I think she opted not to reconnect the friendship because... 

[00:17:46] nina: Yeah, stay far away. 

[00:17:48] kathy: I was appalled by the story. 

[00:17:52] nina: the reaction. The I'm so glad. I'm glad shared that. I think that's good example of when know someone is walking around carrying grudge. yes it weighs them down. But if they're willing to walk 12 years being weighed down that, it's like yeah, I don't really want to be friends with you. That's petty. 

[00:18:09] kathy: I mean, was so stupid.

[00:18:11] nina: Look We have never really been this judgmental on show, but I that's 

[00:18:17] kathy: Yeah. So this was all because I mentioned your podcast, it managed bring this memory she didn't know that well, here heard this story. 

[00:18:26] nina: Yeah. Well, it, yeah, because it obviously bothered her, even though she's not to person, like, to be on the receiving end of being dropped over something that is. Something that would be hard to forget. At the did she suspect? 

[00:18:39] kathy: No. She really had no idea. 

[00:18:40] nina: It was a big mystery. 

[00:18:41] kathy: Big mystery.

[00:18:42] nina: Did they have mutual friends? 

[00:18:44] kathy: I don't know that much of the story. 

[00:18:45] nina: Like I need some follow up. I need, Give me her number. I'm going to be about this story. This is one of those stories that is gonna get to me. I mean mom, get letters from people who are are so mad at their friends and maybe they're waiting for an apology. Sometimes get letters and , they're usually anonymous I can't respond, is probably for the best. And I just kind of want to say, is there anything your friend do to even stay in your good graces?

You know, there's like some people you can't really please. 

[00:19:12] kathy: Well, we've had this in previous podcasts. If you want to have friends, have to be willing to overlook a whole lot of things. like someone's basic personality, sometimes.

[00:19:22] nina: Well, that's maybe lot a ask. Like, maybe you friends with someone if you have to overlook their personality.

[00:19:27] kathy: sometimes a person can behave one way, but is a really good friend. So maybe they have an attitude that you sort of get annoyed by, but In other instances that person's a really good caring friend. 

[00:19:41] nina: Yeah, that's true I actually have said times this podcast, but for someone new it's good to hear that Kind of like your friend was irritated you for not like showing up at the hospital I'm going to be the friend that is I'm never going to the first to a ride to the airport Like you've heard me say before. Right?  

[00:19:57] kathy: And I'm not gonna be the friend who offers to make a main course for dinner party. I'll

bring or lemon slices, something I make, but I don't expect to do the main catering for somebody else's dinner party.

[00:20:08] nina: Do people ask people to bring main dishes? 

[00:20:10] kathy: It was the same friend. Who was mad at me for not going to the hospital. 

[00:20:13] nina: Mom, that's so funny. I've never heard you tell that part of the story. that's ridiculous. Okay, bring an appetizer. I'll happily bring drinks. bring dessert. I’m not bringing the main dish. If gonna bring the main dish, I'm gonna have the party. 

[00:20:26] kathy: Exactly. 

[00:20:27] nina: That's silly. That's really funny. Oh my gosh. , okay, so curious growing up, did your family have any kind of tradition around? talk of forgiveness around the holidays? Was there any? discussion of that? 

[00:20:42] kathy: Absolutely not. No discussion whatsoever. 

[00:20:45] nina: I can't remember if we did, , growing will that Bryan prints out a list of, sort of like, deep questions that he's answering his life at the beginning of the month it's not just about

 Forgiveness stuff. That kind of comes later. At the beginning of the month, really more, you know, what are things that I... Want in life. What am doing to achieve those things? Not in a December 31st New Year kind way it's deeper that. It's not goals, more spiritual You know emotional kind of things. So my kids are growing up an atmosphere and constantly talking about it and he goes to each kid and says, how have I been as a dad? Are there things you'd like to see different? What can I on? I mean, he really does this every 

[00:21:26] kathy: Do they tell him?

[00:21:27] nina: Yeah. They tell him. And I do it to a degree, the problem he gets to everything first. And I feel like if I around do it, I'm just of copying Bryan. I in my own way, will do it and I'll ask their forgiveness for things I might have done that hurt their feelings and, kind of make them do it to each other. It's like a whole thing.

[00:21:47] kathy: I can't imagine this happening in the house I grew up in. It was another generation ago where parents were always right you always deferred to your parents. 

[00:21:55] nina: Well, I mean, we're not always the kids aren't always right obviously either. there's things that we we done better because we're the adults there's times lost temper it the kids fault. We're the adults. We should be able to control ourselves more. So it's like we owe them an apology for that. Even though they're kids and we're charge. when you're the adult, have burden of acting adult.

And so if you haven't, then you that an apology probably. 

[00:22:20] kathy: That's really important. There are people my age who've been in therapy for a gazillion years who are still waiting any apology from a parent who's long gone. 

[00:22:30] nina: Yeah, well right, that's Now I'm not saying we're perfect at all and I'm not saying my kids couldn't benefit from many years therapy where they're gonna be upset with us one day. But I say that the holiday, the month of holiday, really does help frame that. Any other thoughts, on forgiveness, the importance of asking forgiveness? . 

[00:22:49] kathy: It's something I don't think about very much, but one always learn from one's children. 

[00:22:54] nina: Oh, nice. 

[00:22:55] kathy: And, will take under consideration. 

[00:22:57] nina: Whether you should ask people for forgiveness? 

[00:22:59] kathy: Yeah.

[00:22:59] nina: I can tell you right that you do not owe me an apology for anything. You really don't. 

[00:23:04] kathy: Well, that's nice hear. 

[00:23:05] nina: And it's a year by year basis. I'm not like, you know, years ago maybe, but this year could not think a single thing. Do I owe you an apology is what I should be thinking about. 

[00:23:16] kathy: No, I can't think of anything you need to apologize for.

[00:23:19] nina: Okay. All right. That's good. If you know, change your mind, can. Send me a or I call back on your answering machine. listeners, if you have not heard mom on the podcast before, you might enjoy going all the way back to episode one. was very first guest we talked about friends who will only text not up the phone. And I taught her how to emojis live on the podcast and it was really and we have a picture of it. 

Alright, Mom, wishing you a Shana Tovah, which a Happy New Year. I wish we could celebrate together. You're never here for the holiday. I'm rarely in Chicago for the holiday. I don't think you would like intense is here.

[00:23:54] kathy: I probably wouldn't. wish you Tovah as well.

[00:23:58] nina: All right, listeners, I'd love to have my mom back again. has to visit me more, but we might teach her do it remotely so can have on more. And, you know, I'm going if you've heard this show before, you should come back next week when friendships are going well. We happier all around. Thanks!